What does daily life look like for you currently? Do you have a day job - or some sort of side hustle to supplement money for being a musician? What do you do for work?

I do have a day job, and I love it (both the job, and having one). I went back to grad school for Labor Studies and I work for a labor union. I think exercising different parts of my brain actually helps me be more creative; similarly, removing the pressure of making music my full livelihood has helped unblock creativity. That pressure can either cause creative paralysis, or it just interrupts the creative process by forcing you to consider whether something is going to be commercially viable while in the middle of making it. I very much want my music to be heard and loved and paid for, of course, but it’s not fundamentally why I make it, so the balance of a day job keeps the process feeling pure and flowing for me. I also really like to be able to make records quickly, when the urge strikes, so knowing that I have a reliable income does help me feel freer in that sense. 

Do you feel like there is financial, and emotional sustainability and stability in being a touring musician? Or do you have an alternative plan down the road?

Does it sound pessimistic if I say probably not? I don’t mean it to be. I think music is a bit like academia—tons of people wrestling each other to get to the top of the pyramid for this very rare and difficult to achieve prize, only to succeed and find out the prize is like a $30k a year adjunct job without benefits or stability anyway. Just to be clear, it still feels amazing to pursue the thing you’re passionate about so that’s no reason not to either! I just find it more liberating to be honest about the circumstances we’re facing. 

I love the touring I’ve done, and I’m desperate to do more of it!! But I find it easier to handle the grind with a clear head about what I am and am not likely to get out of it. That’s where I think emotional stability can be possible. 

If I’m doing it primarily in order to suck every last morsel of magic out of it, to have these beautiful experiences, to enrich my life, then hell yeah that shit is so fulfilling! If the goal is to make a living, there’s inherently a risk of emotional disappointment. But risk is good and exciting too—I don’t know, some people really do find ways to make this all work authentically, and I’m inspired by that.

What are your financial goals in playing music? Are they different from when you first started out?

They’ve changed to the extent that the industry itself has changed. Growing up, the artists I idolized (Wilco, Elliott Smith), even though they were “independent”, they were on major labels, ya know? And then on a smaller scale, the cult icons, your Bill Callahans, Jason Molinas, etc., these appeared to be more replicable types of careers. But I suspect that we now need to be honest and say that they may not be—those artists came up at a time when people were buying physical media. Their audience connected deeply with them when the expectation was to pay for music, and as their audience ages, they still have the relationship with these artists such that they’ll buy music. 

That’s not going to be the case on the same scale for someone my age, realistically. It’s an unfortunate reality to consider, but figuring out how to make the best of this broken system requires grappling with some tough truths about it, I think.

My goals in music now are to have as many fulfilling experiences as possible. That’s why I value a day job, I think. I want to get paid and I want to get paid fairly when I perform, but if I have an opportunity to do a show that means a lot to me, and maybe bring out a band that’s going to make me feel good to play with, I have the flexibility to make that calculation. Often, I’m willing to pay the band more than I get paid for a show because I don’t want to say no to that experience—if my livelihood was on the line, I might have to say no to things that ultimately I’d be sad to miss. It sucks that this is always the calculation we need to make, but I’m grateful to be getting better at finding a balance that works for me. 

My main goal now is to make as many records I believe in as possible, (lose as little money as possible), and enjoy the shit out of every second that I can. There’s so much about the music industry that is not enjoyable that we better freaking enjoy the little moments we do get when we get them! 

Do you feel like you’re seen as childish for pursuing music as a career?

I used to get consumed by that feeling (shame), but I think I’ve flipped the script a bit. I mean, in the most technical sense, I don’t think I can give the answer I gave above about whether this is a sustainable career, then pursue it anyway, and not at least entertain the idea that it is childish—but the thing is, I now think that’s a positive rather than a negative! Can I change the wording from “childish” to “childlike”? If I had to be as reductive as possible, the north star I decided on is to maintain a childlike wonder about making music (the actual act of creating, recording, connecting with people), so if it’s childish, I think there’s nothing wrong with that anyway.

What is your stance on streaming and the “future” of how people consume music?

I feel like I could answer this as a listener, an artist, or as someone who runs a label, and they all might be different.

I mean it’s obviously undeniable that it devalued music monetarily, but I think the more significant thing is the way it’s devalued our relationship with art. If you buy a CD or LP from an artist, you’re just going to have a deeper relationship with them, more predisposed to spend real time with it, to try to enjoy it and understand the difficult or challenging parts about that. I do think there’s a strong wave of people intentionally choosing to value that relationship even more now, in response to or defiance of this larger cultural trend, which is amazing, just more niche.

As a listener, I have a mixed experience. I’m not gonna pretend I haven’t learned about a lot of music (especially older, obscure music) from it, but at the same time, it has unconsciously changed my listening habits in a way I hate. Forever, I used an iPod, and I loved having a library that I curated and valued. Streaming, I tend to listen to the same shit over and over, and I dislike that. 

Now, I mostly use the Bandcamp app with a library of stuff that I buy, which is much better, even if I still feel a loss in my relationship to music. My favorite music of the last decade is a Bandcamp only record by an artist I know basically nothing about (“Room For Love” by the The National Park Service), and there’s a lot of magic to discovering music that way. 

Have you thought about quitting music? What prompted it and what ultimately caused you to want to continue?

Absolutely not. This is actually a question I’m extremely passionate about. Without wanting to be in any way judgemental of other people, I really do think we as musicians need to draw a better distinction between “making music” and “making a career out of music.” I think that line has blurred, and I understand why—culturally speaking, what we do is exponentially devalued in a way that causes inevitable effects on our self-worth. But, it’s worth remembering, these are literally completely different things. If you create music or you want to, you are a musician. 

Wanting to be a musician who is given media attention, validated from peers, platformed at shows, that is all a completely separate thing. Don’t get me wrong, I pursue those things too, and find the pursuit valuable (albeit difficult), but that’s not an intrinsic part of being a musician. I completely understand the impulse to “quit” the grind, but to deny myself creativity? For me, no, never! 

My friend Sam (The Bird Calls) told me that we write songs to understand ourselves better and become more empathetic people, and I really try to remember that whenever these things start getting too confused. Whether people engage with it, or they don’t, I’m going to keep making records, now and always, because it makes me feel connected to myself.

What inspires you to create?

My friends, I think. What I am chasing (as a listener and writer) is the kind of songs that could only have come from that specific person writing them—I feel lucky to be surrounded by people just truly embodying their unique voice and point of view. That’s why I started Ruination, to be mutually supporting each other in that pursuit.

Who are you listening to currently that inspires you?

Lately, I am really digging the record Chipmunk’d Away by Max Knouse. Lyrically and sonically, I can only describe this record as “extremely my shit”, and I just admire the patience and subtlety, balanced with some truly great hooks. Nathan Salsburg is the best guitarist out there, and his Landwerk series have been a constant companion over the last few years. Also, Eiko Ishibashi’s “Antigone”, Alli Blois’ “The Maiden”, Catherine Howe’s “What A Beautiful Place”.

How do you replenish your creative energy?

Mostly just moving my body as much as possible. I run, I play soccer, I started swimming though I am terrible at it. I feel like most good lyrics or melodies I come up with are when I’m just taking my dog on a long walk; similarly, if I notice that a song I’m writing gets stuck in my head while exercising, I know it’s probably a keeper.